Slightly before 10:00pm EDT on Saturday, June 30th, 2012, the Classic format passed away after a long coma caused by mysterious trauma suffered on May 5th 2012 (the day after the last Classic Daily Event). Doctors and Classic enthusiasts alike are baffled by what had caused the nearly 2-month coma, but some have postulated it was the result of several lingering health issues. Chief among these suspected complications was apathy. The recent release of miracles in Avacyn Restored, numerous free tournaments, and the demise of Classic Quarter certainly all contributed to the plight of Classic. Of course, several other afflictions, dating back to when the format was conceived, contributed to shortening its lifespan as well. Classic was 6 years old.
I’ve dreaded writing this article for weeks. I’ve always been optimistic that Classic would be able to rebound and thrive despite the questions clouding its future. Unfortunately, it appears that the time has come to face the facts. Classic, as we have known it to be, is officially dead. We’ve all let the format die a slow death while in denial that there was something wrong in the first place. I can’t help but feel that Classic is going the way of the dodo, 100-Card Singleton, and Kaleidoscope.
Since the end of the Winter Celebration, Classic has managed to fire exactly 7 sanctioned events, with 0 events over the last 2 months. Over that time, there has been a pair of back-to-back large PRE Classic tournaments, but I think it’s safe to say that most of the people that showed up for the “Ham on Wry” events did so either out of respect for Erik Friborg, or because of the insane EV (free tournament with nearly everyone receiving some sort of prize). There was also one season of the Classic League thrown in the middle, but it had the lowest turnout of the 4 Leagues that MMogg had run.
Some of you might be asking yourselves: “Why would someone with this level of prominence in the format want to write an obituary about said format?” especially one that just finished writing about how great the format is in their Year 1 Retrospective? Well, first and foremost, I think the truth needs to be acknowledged. Someone needs to come out and say it. There is a fair bit of denial in the community (myself chief among them) that things would eventually work themselves out. My personal belief is that we need to be open about the problems that we are having and elicit some discussion. As they say, the first step is understanding and accepting that a problem exists.
However, much like the Death of Superman, it doesn’t have to be the end of the Classic format. In fact, it could be that whenever Classic comes out of this extended lull, it will be even better than it was before. Unfortunately, the biggest problem right now is fighting back the apathy that has developed over the last couple of years. To me, there is no bigger problem than ourselves.
Having said all that, there are two paths we as a community can take: admit that the format is dead and there is no return, or step up to the plate and bring Classic back from the dead.
How did we get here?
Let’s start at the beginning. All Eternal formats (yes, Modern included) elicit a stigma from the general population that the barrier to entry is too high. I’m not here to argue the validity of such feelings, but the reality is that it is a common feeling, and perhaps one that can never be fully relieved under any circumstances. What is worth discussing here is what can be done to minimize this effect, short of having Wizards simply hand out all the cards for free.
It is possible to build cheaper decks that don’t require Force of Will, (blue) dual lands, and the rest of the $10+ cards that exist in Classic. While those decks may not win all of the time, they are viable. Red Deck Wins is probably the cheapest deck to build right now. In fact, Wizards practically handed out a free RDW deck to everyone just a few days ago with the Fire and Lightning Premium Decks! Even if you didn’t manage to score a free deck, you can buy one for just a few tickets. Will RDW win more than 50% of their matches? Probably not, but it certainly can win games, and with just a few tweaks, might be able to compete with the “unfair” decks like Storm and Dredge. This might be something I will try to investigate and write about in an upcoming article.
Not everyone will want to sling Mountains and Lightning Bolts at their opponents, though, so what could be a slightly better alternative? How about GW Hate (Maverick) or Dark Depths? Both decks are fairly cheap and offer enough disruption to keep most decks on their heels. I’ve written about the GW Hate deck last year and you can find the primer here. Dark Depths (or Dark Times) is on my “to-do list” of primers.
Along the lines of barriers to entry, I’d like to share with all of you an interesting conversation that I had recently with user KingofPop on the Scheduled Events discussion boards. While I don’t have the full transcript, the conversation went something like this: KingofPop is interested in Classic and had actually invested in the dual lands at the release of MED4. Once he noticed that the events were not firing, he sold off the dual lands and lost interest in the format. I believe that KingofPop is just one of many people on the periphery of Classic. While KingofPop decided to sell off those cards, I am convinced there are many people out there like KingofPop, some of whom even have the cards but simply don’t use them outside of the practice rooms. Either way, I don’t think financial cost is the biggest barrier to entry. Rather, it may be a prime example of the “if you build it, they will come” phenomenon. If the events start firing, then others will undoubtedly get interested again, being hopeful that their time thinking about the format would be well-spent!
Perhaps the biggest barrier, though, is actually knowledge. Classic is a format of intense decision-making under conditions of limited information. Mastering the format takes a lot of time: learning when to play spells (or when not to), what traps to watch out for, and of course, effectively sideboarding. Naturally, experience is gained by playing against competent opponents, and lately, the Tournament Practice room has been barren. If we start to make concerted efforts to hit the Tournament Practice room, perhaps more people can get in the practice they need to feel comfortable competing in Daily Events?
OK, but why should I join a queue? What’s in it for me?
Classic has suffered from the quintessential Magic Online Catch 22: as fewer events fire, interest diminishes until it’s reached the point that people refuse to enter because the events are unlikely to fire in the first place. This might be the biggest problem right now! Apathy amongst the community has caused people essentially to give up trying to get events to fire. This has to change.
Here’s another way to look at it: Why would anyone take the time and money to invest in Classic if they can’t enter any events with those cards? There is virtually no influx of new people! So how do we get more events to fire? Well, one of the problems is that the community no longer knows when the events are being offered!
I included this list in an earlier article, but it’s worth repeating here:
The new Classic schedule is as follows (all times listed are EDT):
Monday 10:30:00 PM
Tuesday: 09:30:00 PM
Wednesday: 07:30:00 PM
Thursday: 08:30:00 PM
Friday: 04:30:00 PM
Friday: 11:30:00 PM
Saturday: 02:30:00 PM
Saturday: 09:30:00 PM
Sunday: 10:30:00 AM
Sunday: 07:30:00 PM
The recent time changes, while practically begged for, have actually backfired. Prior to the recent schedule change, people knew exactly when Classic DEs were being offered. Everyone knew there were a Saturday afternoon/evening event and a Sunday morning/afternoon event, depending on what time zone you were in. Occasionally, people would show up for the Thursday evening event. Now? I’d be hard pressed to guess that even 10% of the Classic-playing community knows when the events are these days. I’ve done my share posting on the various forums trying to remind people when the events are being held, and I’m not the only person either. Yet, despite our efforts, the word is not getting out there. This leads me to my next thought…
The Fall of Classic Quarter
Vintage has the Mana Drain and Legacy has the Source. For the longest time, Classic Quarter (“CQ”) filled a similar role for Classic. It was a place for people to post anything and everything about Classic. While CQ still offers all of the same features that everyone used before, traffic has been down significantly. While I don’t have any numbers to support this, I certainly see the number and quality of posts dropping precipitously. It’s quite depressing actually.
DangerLinto, the curator, if you will, of CQ, has put in countless hours of his life to driving Classic. I can’t imagine that Classic would have survived without him over the years. Unfortunately, real life issues have taken away a lot of the time that Danger was able to put into the site and the format.
Making matters worse, there were some prominent controversies regarding the Wizards-sanctioned Player of the Year race, which led to it finally being dissolved earlier this year. While this is neither the time, nor the place, to discuss those controversies, the reality is that without the Player of the Year race, many people have left the format (in addition to those who left as a direct result of said controversies).
The community needs to rally around the format’s discussion boards. Having a home like CQ or Magic-Eternal.com is vital. There needs to be a place that people can depend on to be there when they need information about the format.
Prize Payout
One of the more surprising aspects of Classic is that for as long as I can remember, the prize payout has been the latest Core Set. While Modern, Legacy, Standard, and Block enjoy receiving rotating prize support based on the latest Limited Draft sets, Classic is relegated to second-rate prize support. This is always a problem from April/May onwards, as the Core Set’s value absolutely plummets. A quick look at the Classifieds in client shows that bots are selling M12x3 for 7 tickets or fewer. Buy prices are about 1.5 tickets. At that rate, finishing 3-1 in a Daily Event would yield a whopping 3-ticket profit, hardly worth the time commitments testing and playing. Makes you question the investment in Forces or Dual lands for a measly 3 tickets, huh?
At one point last year, Wizards promised some sort of rotation of prizes. Had that actually taken place, it would have been a slightly better solution to the problem. In fact, right now is the perfect time to change from M12 to DII payout since the preeminent prize payout is currently triple Avacyn Restored. While a large 3rd set isn’t always available, Wizards could do something about the atrocious payout for Classic.
One of the more spirited discussions on Classic Quarter revolves around suggesting alternatives to payouts of eternal formats, specifically Legacy and Classic. One of the perks of the Winter Celebration was the door prize of a textless-Ponder for all participants and a foil version for those who went either 4-0 in a Daily Event or Top 8-ed a Premier Event.
Adapting this as a normal procedure would be welcomed by everyone. If there is one thing that Classic players enjoy, it’s blinging out their decks with the most hard-to-find foil versions of Classic playables. This could in turn drop the prices of the non-promo versions of Classic playables, or at least increase their availability. With only 10 events on the schedule each week, there would still be a limited supply of these promos and it would be a great way to mitigate the Core Set payout problem.
Another idea is to have a rotating payout of out-of-print sets such as Mirage Block or Urza’s Block, etc. Each month, the prizes could rotate to a new block and the following month could offer a nix-tix limited queue of the previous month’s pay-out. A side effect would be that it could lower the price of some Classic cards as more supply enters the market.
Vintage
Legacy is supported by a thriving paper-equivalent metagame. There are quite a few writers who have regular columns regarding Legacy and the events that happen every weekend around the world. Classic has no such paper equivalent. If someone wants to read about Classic, there are currently my articles, and well… that’s about it. Several other people have produced articles and even regular series, though none has stood the test of time (I’m not saying that my 1-year feat is all that remarkable, rather that I’m just about all that’s left).
Obviously, there is the hope that one day, Classic will be converted to Full Vintage by releasing the Power 9 and a few other cards that have not made their way into the system as of yet (most, though, are terrible). In a recent Q&A with Wizards on Friday, June 29th, Worth Wollpert, Director of the Magic Digital Studio, responded to the question of whether or not Power 9 would make it online as follows: “What I’ll say is that they’ll make their way to MTGO eventually. It’s a genie we cant put back in the bottle once we let it out, so I want to be *very* careful about the execution. It’s definitely top of mind, all.”
Clearly, the desire for releasing the Power 9 is there, so there can be no further speculation that it can’t happen. On the other hand, there was no definitive timeline for when they would be released. It’s possible it could be 2, 3, maybe even 5 years down the road, but Worth’s last line is what leads me to believe that it’ll be sooner rather than later: “It’s definitely top of mind, all.”
In the end, no matter how long it takes for the Power 9 to come online, it should have no bearing on Classic in the meantime. Anyone who stopped playing Classic simply because there is no definitive outlook for getting the Power 9 online is missing the point of the format. Classic is the only place to play with the “too powerful for Legacy” cards while also offering some things that Vintage can’t offer, such as several Vintage-restricted cards that are unrestricted in Classic (that is, cards “too powerful for Vintage”)
Free Tournaments
The Classic League and various other free events over the last year have had the intention of bringing a large-scale event to the Format and provide alternatives to those with busy schedules. They are nothing but successes, except for the fact that I (and many others) feel that it has led to the expectation of free tournaments with high EV. There are several people who have participated in these free tournaments, but never join any queues. Understandably, some have schedules that prevent them from entering the events at the corresponding times, but I get the feeling that there are others who only join the events because they are free. While that is their own prerogative, it does not contribute to a healthy format, especially one with so few players to begin with.
Going Down With a Fight
I’m throwing down the gauntlet right here. If anyone out there wants to help save this format, now is the time to do it. Now is the time to make an effort to join the queues (early too, not with only 5 minutes to spare, where it looks to prospective players like it won’t fire), learn the new schedule, playtest in the Tournament Practice room, and spark up discussions on the community forums.
Classic is near and dear to enough people that letting the format die would be a crying shame. To borrow Jack Shepard’s speech from one of my Top 5 favorite TV shows, Lost: “It’s been 2 months, and we’re all still waiting. Waiting for someone to show up in the queues. But what if they don’t? We have to stop waiting. We need to start figuring things out…. It’s time to start organizing. We need to start figuring out how Classic is going to survive here…. but if we can’t live together, we’re going to die alone.”
enderfall
Clan Magic Eternal
Follow me on Twitter @enderfall
As a follow-up: With regards to prize payout, I’ve chatted with a member of Wizards to bring attention to the pathetic prize support. He thanked me for my feedback, but didn’t offer up any tangible response to indicate that they will do anything about it, or if they have anything up their sleeve already. I guess the take away is that they are now aware of it issue and it’s in their court to do something about it.
I agree with your assessment, enderfall. Apathy is serious. There seems to be a threshold level of apparent interest in a format that gives any given prospective player an amount of faith that the queue will fire necessary for them to join the queue and allow it to fire.
Contributing to this is the obvious problem of asymmetrical prize payout, as you note. Asymmetrical, that is, in that less valuable prizes are allotted to tournament winners the corresponding formats of which demand mastering different card interactions and collecting difficult-to-find cards. One would think that to encourage the health of such formats, the prize support would be slightly skewed in the direction of rewarding innovators and participants given the higher barrier to entry.
who cares bro. Standerd is all where it at yo. Bonfire, RG aggro beatz, Delver of Serretcs, what more could u want.
The prize payout was the thing keeping me from joining, desperately trying to find a new format as i don’t like standard and modern has gotten a bit boring, I don’t mind making the investment to build the deck I want to play, but currently I will never make that money back with the current prizes so it hardly seems worth it.
I don’t play classic because:
- No Moxen
- I’d rather own FoW in paper than online, and I don’t even have the money for the paper cards
- Price payout
- No Qs fire
- If people play, they seem to be hardcore
So yeah. Format’s dead.
Here’s the biggest problem and you touched on it in the article. Classic is really just “feels” like a neutered vintage. I know classic is its own thing but as long as classic remains online only and vintage remains its closest paper counterpart, why would anyone invest in an format that has a high barrier to entry that’s an “inferior” version of its paper equivalent.
And really the only reason vintage is cool is because it allows you play with all of magic’s legendary cards including its most legendary. The power 9. Classic is just like vintage except its missing vintage’s single biggest hook.
I dont play classic (other than casual) because:
The cards cost too much – 100 for a fow or LED is just stupid (especially with LED which is very narrow and only usable in one real deck). But even for decks without FOW/LED you are still looking at a very expensive format. Yes you can play rdw for somewhat cheap…it wont win but you can play it.
The format is degenerate. There are way too many combo decks and its very unhealthy for the format and EXTREMELY BORING to play against. There needs to be more of a banned/restricted list….which would just make the format Legacy.
The format has very little interaction. Playing fow is not interacting. Tendrils targetting the opp is not interacting. There are many solitaire/goldfish decks in the format. That is something I have zero interest in playing with or against. Magic is a 2 player game, and I have no interest in watching someone masturbate.
My experience with classic players is that they are snobs. People get mocked for having the cheaper version of cards in their deck. Players are rude when they dont agree with opp deck choices. More so than in other formats. This is just my experience, doesnt apply to everyone.
I enjoy playing classic in casual games. There is a lot of very fun and interactive decks you can play with how few restrictions there are for the format. Unfortunately when it comes to tourney play having just a few restrictions is not a good thing.
Gee, everyone coming out of the woodwork to take a shot at Classic, huh? Lot’s of misconceptions going around as well…people taking hearsay and making it fact. But that’s what people do in real life… I guess there isn’t anything I can do, people will believe what they want to believe.
A few things are completely baffling to me though… MonKei would own FoW in paper, but not digital? What’s the difference? They both cost well over $50! People like playing Delver in Standard…well, you can play Delver in Classic with better cards…it’s probably the best deck at the moment, too!
And 420Gabriel, I have to call you out on Classic being snobs. You may have had one bad experience with a particular player, but I can’t imagine you haven’t encountered all the rage quitters that abound in limited and standard. That is not evident in all but the smallest of % of players in Classic (perhaps only a couple of people), but what I see of and hear about in Standard and Limited is leaps and bounds worse than anything in Classic.
Just a short opinion for now. Classic (and any format like it, ahem, 100 Card Singleton) needs official tournament queues with subsidies- something like “Weekend Challenges” or DEs that give all participants a UNH land and 3-1/4-0 a foil UNH land. Perhaps special, invite-only events where the new art (promo) Classic cards were given out as prizes would also help (to both add to the card pool and give incentive to play). If only WotC offered a TO account for non-employees to run events…
So basically, enderfall, we were telling you why we do not feel like playing classic. The response: “not true, get your facts right” and a lot of hating. See, I typed in a wall of text, but then deleted all that BS. It’s not my job to tell you why it’s stupid for you to say the reasons for me not playing classic base on misconceptions. Figure it out yourself. God, SO MUCH HATE.
Oh, and I’d rather own paper FoWs because… I like it moar?
The loss of the weekend challenges and introduction of daily events likely is what killed classic ust as it did 100CS. At first people thought it was great because there were now more tournaments. However as several people pointed out at the time it fragments the player base and then all of a sudden there are too many events and people don’t all try to go to the same time slots and then they stop firing and then no one joins any of the time slots.
100CS and classic regularly fired their weekend challenges. It is still a mystery to me why WOTC didn’t revert back to the old system after this one clearly failed. The only times classic or 100CS didn’t fire their weekend challenges was during release weeks.
All I’m saying is that you can’t hate a certain type of food when you’ve never tried it. You can say that the food doesn’t look appealing to you and that’s why you don’t eat it, but you can’t say the food tastes like dirt if you have no clue what it tastes like.
To use some old school terms. if type 1 (Classic) is just type 1.5 (Legacy) online because of no power nine cards, there where’s the incentive to invest in type 1? Maybe Wizards should have given everyone online a set of power 9 for the 10th anniversary instead of foil fun decks and maybe you would see a more people interested in type 1. You can argue to the contrary, but most people don’t like playing a round of magic that is decided by who wins the die roll, which is what type 1 has been for a long time.
I feel that everyone who loves Magic is entitled to their niche, but making comments like “play this deck in Classic because it wins (sometimes), is akin to pro players writing articles that say ‘play this deck (so I can beat you) and is, in my opinion, in bad taste. if a format is dead…it’s dead. All good things must come to an end. So sell your Classic cards and come join us in the 21st century of MTGO!
Its quiet ironic that now modern/standard has classics shoe on the other foot. Classic is dead and if that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black then I dont know what is.
To get back on point, I think platipus10 has an interesting thought. What if, there was only one event each weekend. Could enough players make time to play in that one event knowing it was the only opportunity to do so that week, which is to say what the weekend challenges used to be?
I think, as well as what’s left of the community, we’ve mutually decided that the 9:30pm EDT event on Saturdays is the most likely to fire. Perhaps we should all just assume that that is the only event each week. I’ll be there this coming Saturday, though the next two Saturdays after that I have a vacation followed by a work trip.
I’ll acknowledge that in hind-sight asking players to join with RDW could be viewed as a way for someone to game the system for easy prey. Obviously, that was not my intention. I was merely trying to point out that if someone was so inclined to TRY the format but was not willing to pay money for a top deck, RDW is the cheapest option available. RDW CAN win! I’ve lost my fair share of games to RDW and if someone actually tried to create a metagame RDW to beat other Classic decks it could succeed. I’m willing to try it out myself as I’m not entirely sure anyone has tried before. My assumption is that everyone just throws in 40 burn spells and 20 lands and calls it a day. Is it possible to build a better RDW?? Probably not, but I will certainly try.
Mad, “So sell your Classic cards and come join us in the 21st century of MTGO!”
The sad part, though, is that MTGO provides the opportunity to offer a bunch of unique formats and play styles that are hard to organize in paper (mainly due to cost). The 21st century of MTGO actually seems like it would involve a bunch of different options — look at how Commander took off, for instance.
Also, for those who keep saying that whoever goes first wins, this suggests you haven’t played the format very much, or read the coverage. Enderfall’s series has shown time and time again that creatures and creature-based (even aggressive) decklists are a mainstay in Classic, alongside combo.
Since I dont play the format at all I’d figure I would join the rest of this page and just blurt out shit I dont know but I feel I do anyway. Because, You know, screw you. So, anyway. Yeah. All those crazy storm combo decks killing people on their turn 0. And youre all snobs, also I cant afford it and youre all snobs. Oh , wait i already said that. Well youre still snobs.
So there are my reasons why classic is dead. No, i dont play it and never will but i will write here like i know why classic is dead, because why not?
PS. I hate Monkies.
PSS. Join me next week for my free feature article on why Legacy is dead. You can all chime in with your useless bullshit then!
It seems that people are taking it quite personal for an unknown reason. If you don’t care about Classic, so why hating?
@ enderfall: I liked your articles as they were well explained and you seem to know the format. However, I had the impression that for this very one, you got a bit – let’s say – emotional. Which is fine in the first place. But I have to agree with MonKei that there was no need to blame people that were honestly trying to help by telling you why they don’t play Classic. I would very much rather own a paper Force of Will than a digital version. Something you can touch and see without having electricity is just way better than magnetic 0s and 1s. Moreover, you can frame it and decorate your home
I mean, don’t get me wrong. It’s all fine getting emotional about the format you love but it seems a bit conter-productive to me to blame people trying to help.
Theirs definitely a possibility that classic is decidedly finished, not finished in a comparison to when we all left the legacy queues, but decidedly so in that classic is now dead.
I too have come to this conclusion. However I think it is important that we remember that classic is a different game to classic in the sense of what classic is considered to be, ie classic in the sense of a very different game. It’s metagame and it’s play style is totally different.
Anyway, just my 2cents.
Beside’s, I have 4 FOW online, and 8 mint/NM FOW in paper, so not my problem
kekekeke
Traded for paper FOWs back when Mirage came out, got them for practicaly nothing. I could sell them for $200+ no sweats today if I wanted to.
Congrats Jeff on your FoWs *rolleyes*.
Classic is dead/dying for the same reason that legacy is dying in paper, new formats for a lower entry fee dissuade players from entering. Ask a paper modern player why he plays modern and not legacy and the answer is never card availability, it is always some skewed version of how combo dominates and there is no reason to play such a stale format. Same goes for classic. Turn 1 kills rule the format with FoW, Mental Mistep, thoughseize, duress, spellsnare, spell pierce, etc.
cheers man. Yeah u just gotta read lot’s of trading articles and have the business acumen, and you can get some good deals on sleepers sometimes.
I’m glad that my article has generated the response it has thus far.
That being said, I’m not sure how my article was seen as “emotional”. The tone was clearly “here are the problems, the format is basically dead, let’s band together and help fix it”.
I also wasn’t aware that pointing out misconceptions about the format, mostly from people that probably have never played Classic, could be considered blaming them for the fall of the format. They were clearly not helping by spouting out things they may have heard 3rd hand in the just for fun room from someone that had also never played the format. My article explicitly stated exactly what went wrong, and at no point did I blame the fall of the format on people’s uninformed opinions. They thought they were helping by post their hate here, so I was simply calling out the hate as unnecessary. Constructed criticism is one thing. Spewing hate for no reason other than to pour salt on the wounds is not productive.
For the record, Modern has a pretty dominant combo deck that consistently finishes well in tournaments…Just because the combo typically goes off on Turn 4 instead of “possibly” Turn 1 in the most rare circumstances, doesn’t mean it’s any less prevalent, nor oppressive. Additionally, less than 1% of Classic games I’ve played are Turn 1 kills. If Turn 1 kills were so prevalent, then why would cards like Jace, Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, Delver, Dark Confidant, Standstill, Trygon Predator, or any number of other cards that can not possibly win a game on Turn 1 sound strategies? If all it was was two people playing solitaire, then why do creature decks perform so well?
It’s been my personal impression that the article is “emotional” in the sense of having more personal involvement compared to your other articles. I suppose I didn’t make that clear enough.
Regarding “blaming” people or not, I admit that I again may have expressed myself inaccurately. I was mostly referring to MonKei’s post. I can’t really find obvious hate in his/ her list of why he/she isn’t playing Classic.
For the others, I do agree with you that it certainly is self-assertive to state personal impressions as facts and I don’t like those “reasons” either. However, it might be due to me not being involved in Classic but I didn’t read that much hate from the first couple of comments. It also may be that my English is simply too bad.
Anyways, I definitively do understand you and I know how it feels like. I’m kind of sitting at the other end of the table trying to convince the people in my local community to play Pauper. They also refuse to give it a shot without having played it even once and claim it would be boring and not challenging at all.
I hope, I made myself clear this time (Curse you, lack of English skills!) that I agree with you in most aspect, but on the other hand, couldn’t confirm the amount of potential hate in some comments.
Cheers,
High_Gene
Here’s the thing: MonKei’s first post was completely fine. I made it a point in my analogy to eating vegetables that you can claim that Classic doesn’t appeal to you because it doesn’t have Power, or it is expensive, or the queue’s don’t fire, etc. Those are all valid concerns, and I accept that. MonKei’s post basically said that much, but they made one strange comment that I didn’t understand (desire to own FoW in paper but not digital), which I pointed out. If you can own FoW in paper but not digital, then why own any digital cards at all? Isn’t that argument saying that you don’t value digital cards, and as such, what would be the purpose of owning any digital cards?? Unless that is because you acquired your FoW many years ago very cheap and the cost of FoW on MTGO precludes you from owning it online….which is a completely different/separate issue.
My original concerns were with some others thoughts. Yet somehow, MonKei took everything so personal, as if I was directing everything I said at them. I took exception to the following: Turn 1 kills, non-interactivity, snobbish behavior, and hardcore players. The first two are completely incorrect, the 3rd is making a sweeping generalization based on one individuals experience with a very small handful of specific individuals (or fewer) and the last is to be expected in any competitive format.
I hope this clears things up.
I’m sorry to see that Classic has hit a wall. Reasons why I didn’t get into Classic:
1) Investment was a bit too high for me; I can trade for one or two decks with the resources in my account, but I would rather play a format in which I can play a bunch of different decks. Playing the same deck in the format all the time gets stale, and it also doesn’t allow one to also play the metagame very much (yes, card choices can still address the metagame, but not as much as switching decks).
2) I didn’t find the games to be as fun as I had hoped when I tried it for a bit, but admittedly I suffer from that knowledge deficit that you mentioned.
Wizards has to be given plenty of blame for this problem. Rarely have they simultaneously seemed to 1) care about eternal formats much and 2) be smart about managing the health of those formats. They have done some good things, such as feature them occasionally in good ways and offer some special events here and there (that even includes 100CS). But then they shoot themselves in the foot a couple of months later by screwing up the schedule. And the prizes.
And yes, the prizes are a major problem. This has been discussed recently elsewhere, but it MATTERS that a format with much lower initial investment (block) gets higher prize payouts because of market price of packs. I don’t know how much better the prizes would have to be in Legacy / Classic to make those formats fire more often, but that is what it would take. And it’s not like Wizards would be propping up the format and handing out freebies – that is just what it would require for the format to make sense to more people in the same way that Standard and Modern make sense to them now.
By the way, I agree that more promos would be a perfectly valid idea, but I think straight up higher numbers of packs as prizes is way more appropriate. If Wizards wants to justify that idea, then I’m sure they are smart enough to calculate how many packs of product need to be opened on average to produce your average classic deck compared to Block / Standard decks. Guess what – it would be a higher number since you’re pulling rares from more sets! This proves the higher investment cost without forcing Wizards to commit the (evidently) heinous sin of acknowledging that a secondary market exists.
Whatever. I guess I don’t have time to play in events anyway, so I should detach myself a little more.
One other thing I forgot to mention: the reason why I actually did dip my toes into classic briefly. The decks themselves are really, really neat in Classic. They do really cool shit! The synergies are intricate and cool. Also, playing with stuff like Demonic Tutor and Tolarian Academy is friggin’ awesome.
In my opinion, the problem that prevent the Qs to fire (and the community to regenerate) is the time shift. I’ve tried to enter an event last saturday (afternoon GMT). We were 6. I am quite sure that with the players Qing the event at 2.30 AM GMT Sunday morning we were more than 16.
Last winter I’ve attended my first (and only, unfortunately) classic event. I ended 2-2, despite the lack of Fow (I was playing a personal version of 4c noble fish).
Lack of P9 in the format shift the metagame in the shop direction, but this is a personal opinion. Like any magic player I would like to see the P9s online, still classic is (to me) the most fun format and the only I play with interest. Unfortunately I began with paper version in 1996 and I quit it in 1998. MTG without cards as demonic tutor or wheel of fortune (or the proper multilands) it is another game, to me.
I guess that as community we should try to find a combination of day/time in the available Qs that are viable for both european and american players.
In conclusion I have appreciated the article and the comments. Talk about a problem is better than ignore it.
As far as prize payout goes, maybe the prize should fit the format? Personally, I don’t believe that M12 boosters are an incentive to play in a Classic event. Why not offer Master Edition boosters as prize? Of course, you couldn’t offer 11 ME boosters for a 4-0 in a Classic daily, but why not 3 packs for 4-0 and maybe 1 for a 3-1 finish, or 4 and 2? This would have a dual benefit of enticing more people to enter a Classic event, and get more of the cards needed to build good Classic decks into the market (without flooding it). No one will ever open a dual land or a FoW in 11 packs of M12, but they might in 1 pack of Masters Edition.
I agree that since not many Classic events fire, a fixed day/time should be decided on for Classic events. Sunday Classic sounds like a good day to me with event times set up to match the peak hours of global time zones.
I have a full classic deck, most playsets of the needed cards for other decks and still do not play classic. It was my intention and was the reason I collected the cards and played enough to know the format (former paper vintage player).
The reason I do not play is mainly time. I feel that my schedule does not work with the classic community. That is my fault and I cannot blame others for it.
Another (albeit smaller) reason is I have found many members of the classic community to be a bit clique-y. Not snobs by any means. When no one knows me and I show up with a full legit classic deck, no on reaches out. No clan invites. No “hey! let’s play some more”. No “Do you play in the league? Why have I not seen you before?” Nothing. Games, Matches, Gone, despite several watchers. While I do not need someone to give me a reach-around to play classic, it would be nice to break the wall down and be invited into the “classic community”
I am not griping, people can do/play what and how they feel. I just thought I would note my thoughts on why my participation has been non-existent.
Oh…and the prize support in horrendous.
Hi Vic. Thanks for your thoughts. You are a prefect example for me, as I now can point to one specific person that has the cards, but just doesn’t have the time to play etc.
Is “HayMarket8″ your MTGO handle? I don’t recall seeing you in the TP room before, but if I missed you, I apologize. I try to chat up people in the TP room, but sometimes I get distracted or have only a few minutes to play, etc. Other times, the other person doesn’t seem to be interested in chatting (perhaps language barrier is an issue there, though).
Nonetheless, there is always room for players that have a limited amount of time to play in our community. There are other ways to participate that don’t include forking over 6 tickets to play in a DE. ClassicQuarter.com is a great place to simply talk about the format. You can post decklists, and just talk about anything you want. If you have never been to CQ, I encourage you to check it out. Like I said, just posting over there is helping the community. I have never seen new people shunned from CQ, so I fully expect you would be embraced upon signing up.
HayMarket8 is my username. I have been CQ but never posted. In fact, the post above was my first hear yet I have been a reader for over a year. I appreciate all that has been done for classic despite not being mch of a participant. I have entered a few events and been in a couple of ques that did not fire. The events that did not fire were dissappointing as I often have to arrange my schedule to get into them. It is what it is. Thank you for your response.